Brené Brown: Hi everyone, I’m Brené Brown and this is Unlocking Us.

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BB: Welcome back to the final episode in our eight-part series that I am calling On My Heart and Mind. We started the series with my conversation with Valerie Kaur on the power of revolutionary love, the importance of a multicultural democracy, what it means to be a sage warrior. I’ve talked to the stunning Dr. Sarah Lewis on her book, The Unseen Truth, Roxane Gay on her essay on Black gun ownership. I talked to Mary Claire Haver, my friend, OB-GYN, on menopause and the epic failure of the American medical field to focus research and learning on women in their 40s and 50s and beyond. Had a great conversation, hard conversation, with my sisters on grief and love and unexpected joy. My mom died on Christmas Day last year. And we were her primary caregivers along with my husband, and we fought and loved and struggled, and we talk about what we learned about ourselves and each other. And in this final episode of What’s on My Heart and Mind, I am so honored and grateful to share a conversation with you that I had with Vice President Kamala Harris.

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BB: I want to say a few things about the podcast before we jump right into it. The first is I am an unapologetic Harris-Walz supporter. I have studied leadership for the last couple of decades. I have been inside of many, many of the Fortune 100 companies kind of in this country and around the world inside of NGOs, worked with military leaders. Leadership is something that’s really important to me. And this conversation is really the conversation that I insist on having with CEOs and executive directors and military commanders before I agree to do work within their organization. You know, if you take a CEO in corporate sector, I can listen to earnings calls, I can track stocks, I can read engagement data and performance data.

BB: But what’s really important to me is to sit down with a leader and understand their capacity for full presence, understand their values, understand what they believe in, why they’re fighting for what they’re fighting for. And that’s what this conversation is. I think Vice President Harris has done an incredible job, speaking to policy, writing about policy, if you go to her website, there’s detailed policy, everything from foreign policy, economic policy, abortion, guns, the things that matter from the moment we wake up to the moment we go to sleep.

BB: This is a conversation about who is she, what does she believe in, why is she fighting. I will tell you that in terms of high performance, high stress leaders, I’ve met very few as solid as Vice President Harris. I’m excited to bring you into the conversation, Vice President Harris.

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BB: Vice President Kamala Harris. Welcome to Unlocking Us.

VP Kamala Harris: It is so good to be with you, Dr. Brown.

BB: Thank you.

KH: It is so good to be with you, thank you.

BB: I’m just thrilled and ready to dig in.

KH: Me too.

BB: Okay, we’re going to start where we start all of these.

KH: Okay.

BB: Tell us your story, and start from the very beginning.

KH: Oh Lord, how much time do you have? [laughter]

BB: Well, we don’t have it… We, oh, you know. Five, 10 minutes. I mean, this is an important part because I’ve heard bits and pieces, but I wanted… I’m going to ask hard questions along the way.

KH: Okay, okay. So I am one of two daughters who, we were raised primarily by my mother. My parents divorced when I was five and I’m the eldest. And my mother had two goals in her life to raise her two daughters and to end breast cancer. She was a breast cancer researcher. And one of the very few women, and certainly one of the very few women of color.

BB: Wow.

KH: And a lot of my work on women’s health was formed, you know as I was growing up, listening to her and watching her passion about the need for women to have dignity in the healthcare system.

KH: We grew up in an incredible neighborhood where the kids, we would ride our bikes, just all of us together. You know, because the way we were all raised was just “Go out and play.”

BB: “Go, just go…”

KH: “Get out the house.”

BB: The bike gang.

KH: Right. And we did have the bike gang.

BB: Yeah.

KH: You got it.

BB: Oh yeah, no. Had the banana seat.

KH: Yes, I had my banana seat. [laughter] Seriously. Right? And then the tassels and… Right?

BB: Oh yeah.

KH: Oh, we were very serious about this.

BB: Yeah. And you knew where everyone was because there’d be 30 of those bikes in someone’s front yard.

KH: But, that’s exactly… And wherever you ended up around dinnertime is where you ate.

BB: That’s it.

KH: Right?

BB: Our house too. Oh yeah.

KH: Right? And so I had the blessing of a really great childhood because it was like it was a working class neighborhood of you know I try to explain to people have you ever known a neighborhood where people are… They’re proud of their lawn.

BB: Oh yeah.

KH: You know what I mean?

BB: Oh, yeah.

KH: Out there trimming their roses, out there mowing their lawn and just pride in neighborhood, pride in community. It was the kids of the community, we were raised where… I talk about this, which is that I had and have an incredible family, and it is the family that I have that is by blood, and it is the family that I have by love. And that’s how I was raised, that you create your family as much as you are born into your family, right?

BB: Right.

KH: And so I grew up with this expectation also… I joke about it, we were raised in a community of people that told all of us as kids that we were special. We weren’t particularly special. [laughter] But they told us we were and we believed them, right? And I think that in parenting, there are certain things that we do for the children in our lives that teachers do so beautifully, and that we can all do that is just about inspiring a kid to believe that they are loved and they are special. And then you create a high standard for them, and they know they’re supposed to rise to it.

BB: Oh God, yeah, I mean, I see you.

KH: Right?

BB: Yeah, and I see you and I know what you’re capable of and it’s tremendous.

KH: Yeah, and that’s it.

BB: That’s it. That’s it.

KH: And that’s it. And then when you do that, you know how kids are, especially like 12 and under, and you tell them that and they just start walking around with their chest out and their chin up. And that’s one of the best things you can give a child. And then you let them explore and you tell them they are special, which also means then we expect a lot of them.

BB: So I’m going to pause you here. Okay. Because this is, if you look at the parenting research, this follow-up piece is key, which is not you’re special and you don’t have to work at anything, not you’re special and you don’t have to do anything.

KH: No.

BB: You’re special.

KH: And therefore.

BB: Therefore.

KH: Yeah. I mean, I was part of… And I am like this, with our kids and with I have baby nieces who I just love to pieces. They’re my nieces’ children. And when you turn into like your 20s and then you look at your parents and you’re like, “These are all the things you did wrong,” right?

BB: Oh yeah.

KH: And I remember saying to my mother, “You never took my side,” because if I came home with any problem and talked to my mother about it, the first thing she would do was not, “Oh honey, come here. Let me hug you. Oh honey, let me take care of it.” The first thing she would do is look at you and say, “Well, what did you do? What’s your part?”

BB: That’s tough. She was leadership 101.

KH: But that’s right, because what I realized later is that she was teaching me and us that reflect on what your agency was at that moment and what was your responsibility and to the extent that you can control it, don’t let things happen to you.

BB: Okay, I have to pause you again here because this is my nerdy research thing.

KH: Yeah.

BB: Hope.

KH: Yeah.

BB: You know, people think hope is a gauzy emotion of possibility. Hope is actually mostly taught by parents in a learned cognitive behavioral process. What’s interesting about it is the positive correlation between hopefulness and a sense of agency.

KH: Yeah. As you say that, I see that.

BB: Yeah. So hope is actually three. This is C.R. Schneider’s work out of Kansas. Hope is goal. I can set a goal. Pathway. I can find a path to it.

KH: Right.

BB: That includes plan B, C, D, and E, if plan A doesn’t work.

KH: Right.

BB: And agency. I believe in my ability to do it. But this…

KH: And the hope is the driver.

BB: Hope is the driver.

KH: Exactly.

BB: But this pause that your mom made about, let’s talk about your agency here.

KH: In a way that also requires you to… I think it’s very important to also, in any situation and certainly it’s a rule for today among those who call themselves leaders, to then think about it in the context of reflection, because it also requires reflection.

BB: Say more.

KH: What happened? What could have happened? What role did I play in what happened?

BB: Oh, yeah.

KH: And what role did I play, it could be something where you should critically analyze it or to know that there’s a lesson learned, right? And I think that’s important.

BB: It’s courageous, I mean, it’s a hallmark of courageous leadership. It’s a hallmark of our leadership work is that your ability, anytime you’re giving corrective feedback or coaching to anticipate you’re going to have a part.

KH: Right, but that’s exactly right. And that’s right because as a leader, I’m very hard on myself. And one of the things that I feel and take very seriously is my responsibility to be prepared. Also, I’ve got this little thing about, it’s really important to me to be on time. Like someone teased me recently who’s worked with a lot of elected leaders. And like I’ve never seen an elected leader who is always on time. But I feel that I owe other people the respect of knowing their time is important.

BB: Yeah.

KH: Right? And the very least I can do is respect that in terms of what they’ve had to do in their day to meet with me, what they’ve had to put aside to do that. But there are these things that are about just what is your role in a moment of responsibility? And also duty. I gave a speech years ago about the distinction that I see between duty and charity, right?

BB: I’m making a face, y’all can’t see it, but I’m making a face.

KH: Right? And there’s a big difference.

BB: Yes, there’s a huge difference.

KH: Right? Charity kind of is… I mean, I’m oversimplifying it, obviously, but charity is, “Well, I have a little extra to give, and I will be benevolent, and I will give you some of what I have.” Duty is the responsibility that you have. It’s not an option.

BB: No.

KH: It is a responsibility. You should not expect to be applauded for it because it is actually what you are supposed to do. And I connect that to something I’ve seen my whole life and then most recently when I visited the aftermath of Hurricane Helene. And I went to a lot of the relief centers, and you’ve probably seen this.

BB: Oh yeah, Houstonian.

KH: Right. And what you’ve probably seen there, and I’ve seen throughout my life… It is often the case that the people who have the least to give, give the most.

BB: Yes, 100% of the time.

KH: Right?

BB: I mean, we actually see that in the research on charitable giving.

KH: Right. It’s incredible. It’s incredible. And that’s what I mean about duty. It’s not if you have. It’s I have two pennies. I give you one, right?

BB: Yeah, I mean, it makes me… It just makes me emotional as somebody who’s lived through a lot of that. You know, we’re Houstonians. We’ve seen it all go away. And it takes me back to Harvey.

KH: Wow.

BB: When the people getting us out of our home, were part of the Cajun Navy. They were fishermen.

KH: Right.

BB: Yeah. That came here in their F-150s, pulling their boats, gator fan boats, all kinds of stuff, with all kinds of interesting accoutrements on them.

KH: Yeah, of course.

BB: But they were putting us in those boats. And so, it is… I have to ask you a question.

KH: Sure.

BB: And you can just say I’m wrong.

KH: No, anything.

BB: I’m sensing some serious first-born energy here.

KH: Oh, for sure.

BB: It’s a first born!

[laughter]

BB: I’m like, I see you, I see you!

KH: You know, I was just talking with my team about this today. I try not to harp on it, but there is certainly something to birth order.

BB: There is. I mean, the research is so muddy, but every researcher who studies it goes “You know… we don’t know, but it’s true.” You know, it’s just, it’s just, yeah.

KH: Right. Well, like, I grew up from the age of two being told, “Look after your sister.”

BB: Yeah. I mean, I tell a story about… I am the oldest of four. And sometimes my therapist will say like, ‘This really inflated sense of importance.” And I was like, “When you grow up hearing, ‘Put the toilet lid down or your sisters will die,’”

KH: Right. [laughter]

BB: you get a pretty big sense of like, “Wow, every decision I make has pretty big consequences.”

KH: It has to. You’re absolutely right.

BB: Okay, I’ve got to ask you this question. You get to Howard. I heard it was a Houstonian, that termed, that created the term, is it C-cubed? Or three C…

KH: So C-cubed was my… C-cubed was the name that I was given by my sorority when I joined the sorority. We all had our nickname. And that was mine, and it stands for Cool, Calm, and Collected.

[laughter]

KH: So yes, that was a very long time ago, and that was the name I was given. Yes.

BB: I had to track it back because I actually started the research on the short haircut.

KH: Yeah. Oh, you did?

BB: Yeah, because someone sent it to me in this moment of excitement about you running and said “She had to have listened to Depeche Mode, look at the haircut, we’re going hard.” And I was like, “Okay, wait.”

KH: So let me just tell you, my husband loves Depeche Mode and I am not, it’s not my thing.

BB: It’s not your thing?

KH: It’s just, so that’s funny you say that. But I did have that shortcut, but that was like those days, it was those days.

BB: I had a shortcut too, ’86.

KH: But you know what, you’re right. Well, so the person who kind of managed our sorority when I joined was a Houstonian. So yes.

BB: I love this story.

KH: Yes, yes.

BB: Okay, first time you fell in love.

KH: Oh, goodness. In high school. [laughter]

BB: Did you?

KH: Yeah.

BB: Did you get your heart broken or did you break someone’s heart?

KH: I don’t… I didn’t get my heart broken. I kind of just, I went to college. But there’s also, I mean, my best friend from kindergarten is still one of my best friends.

BB: Oh, you’re kidding.

KH: No, in fact, she’s been out campaigning for me in North Carolina knocking on doors.

BB: Let’s go.

KH: Right? I love my girlfriends. We have a sisterhood. I have my sister and in addition my chosen sisters, who we have traveled life together, right? I am godmother to their children. Our husbands are like brothers, right? And it’s a big part of my life. It’s a big part of my life. And it’s a big part of probably my sanity.

BB: Oh, for sure.

KH: Right?

BB: Yes. Yes.

KH: You know, and in fact, I tell women… I mentor a lot of women and men. And I say this to the youngest though, including our kids, including younger adults, “Know that…” Again, this gets back to agency, “Know you have a choice to decide who will be in your friend circle and choose those people who are going to root for you, those people who are not going to judge you but at the same time are going to say, ‘Girl, you need a mint.’” [laughter]

BB: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

KH: Those who will laugh with you when you trip and fall, and then they’ll pull you back up and push you out. And sometimes I just simplify it this way, because I did that a long time ago in my life. I’m not going to have mean friends.

BB: No.

KH: But you have to be intentional about these things, right?

BB: You do. Especially if you ever experience… I mean one of the things that we do with our kids is we do this little metaphor where we have them put a little like pretend there’s a flame in their hand and say when you get really bright and shine, make sure you don’t hang out with anyone that comes by and blows it out because your light is too bright.

KH: Oh, that’s beautiful. I like that.

BB: Yeah, just like you want someone that says “Hey man, you’re shining. Let me help you block the wind for a minute.”

KH: Right. And that’s right. And we have to teach and including other adults.

BB: Yes.

KH: You actually… you have the right to not have mean people in your life.

BB: Yeah.

KH: And to sit back and actually be intentional about how do people make you feel, and it doesn’t mean that people are just blowing smoke up.

BB: That feels bad too, actually.

KH: Right. And it does.

BB: But yes, people feel bad too.

KH: And it absolutely does. And it will not take you to a good place.

BB: No.

KH: Right?

BB: And there’s no trust in that.

KH: No. But there’s not, and there’s no safety in that either, right?

BB: Yeah. It’s really interesting. I saw a quote the other day that said, “How someone treats you says more about you than them. How you allow them to treat you says more about you.”

KH: That’s great.

BB: Yeah. And I think that’s true. And I think that’s adult friendships, like you said, it’s walking a very difficult path.

KH: Right. But you have to be intentional about it.

BB: You have to be intentional.

KH: And this is not like a television program where it’s just going to happen because you just end up being someone’s roommate.

BB: Right.

KH: Right?

BB: No. It’s work.

KH: Yeah.

BB: Relationships.

KH: It is. And it is work. And friendships are work. And it’s work that’s good work. It’s work that can be joyful work. And important.

BB: And it can be hard.

KH: Yeah. It can be hard. But…

BB: Sisterhood’s the same way, don’t you think?

KH: But it is.

BB: Yeah.

KH: Of course.

BB: Yeah. I mean, I’ve had some of the most, Ashley and Barrett are two of the most important people in my life…

KH: You have two sisters?

BB: I have two. They’re identical twins.

KH: Wow.

BB: Oh yeah. When my parents brought them home in New Orleans, I was like, “Holy crap. Are both of them staying?” Like, this is a…

KH: Oh, how old were you when they were born?

BB: Eight. And my brother’s between us. And so…

KH: Oh wow. Okay. And so you’re close to your brother?

BB: Yeah. Code name; Sister Superior. Yeah.

KH: Oh my God.

BB: But that’s okay.

KH: That’s great.

BB: I got, but…

KH: All three of them call you Sister Superior?

BB: Only on occasion. And only once. [laughter]

KH: Yeah. And usually around like a Thanksgiving dinner? [laughter]

BB: Yes. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. We just did a podcast, the one before this is with my sisters about my mom’s death.

KH: Oh yeah.

BB: And kind of, there was a funny moment where I said, “Well, no, I just wanted it to go this way.” And I said, “What did you want Ashley?” And Ashley said, “I just wanted you to stop telling me what to do mostly.” I was like, “That’s my job.”

KH: Well, you and I have had that experience of our mothers passing.

BB: Yeah. Ugh.

KH: And what that… and during an illness, what that does, right? Because it’s interesting, the relationship between adult siblings in the context of your parents can have the effect of having you revert to your 12-year-old self. [laughter]

BB: Oh, my God. I mean, all of a sudden. Right. Like Scooby-Doo is on. And it’s like…

KH: You can lead the world, but you are just back to being 12. [laughter]

BB: Yeah. No, in a heartbeat.

KH: Yep. Yeah. It’s not pretty.

BB: They push the buttons because they installed them.

KH: Exactly. That’s good.

BB: Yeah. So.

KH: Oh, you’ve got… I just feel I should be writing notes right now. [laughter]

BB: Yeah. Yeah. No, I read a lot. I read a lot of quotes. Okay. I’m going to transition to leadership because I have a question for you.

KH: Sure.

BB: So, we’ve been studying like courageous leadership, daring leadership, for 15 years.

KH: Yeah. Yeah.

BB: We have found that daring leaders often have one or two values that are core to them. And we all have a lot of values. But one or two that are core where every other value is forged. What would you say as a leader that your primary one or two values… How would you identify them?

KH: Yeah. They’re probably directly connected. Fairness and justice.

BB: Wow. I would have never, that’s so powerful.

KH: That’s really, really important to me.

BB: Fairness and justice.

KH: Yeah. I mean, it prompts me to act if I see something that is unjust or unfair. And at the same time, fighting for that… for others is something that is a real motivator of mine and actually will cause me to have a very, almost emotional feeling about the importance of it.

BB: Fairness and justice. Okay. Another leadership question. I’ve been watching you. [laughter] You’re making a funny face.

KH: Yikes. Okay. [laughter]

BB: No. And it’s interesting. I see in you… There’s a generational difference in leadership.

KH: Yeah.

BB: So, folks who are 10, 15, 20 years older than us come from a brand of leadership that is very command and control. It’s somewhat ego protective. And our generation is kind of caught in between that and highly collaborative.

KH: Right.

BB: Highly coalition building.

KH: Absolutely.

BB: And in the best moments surrounding ourselves by experts who are high performers, have deep knowledge and understanding and great strategy skills.

KH: Yeah.

BB: You seem to move toward coalition and collaborative leadership. Is that a fair assessment?

KH: Very much, very much.

BB: Say more, say more.

KH: My lived experience is to know that the vast majority of us have more in common than what separates us. And okay. So Gen Z and others will kind of, they’ve got this whole meme about me and my, dare I say, obsession with Venn diagrams.

[laughter]

KH: I love Venn diagrams.

BB: Ain’t nobody over forty that doesn’t like a Venn diagram. Y’all just get used to it.

KH: I love.

BB: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

KH: I love Venn diagram…

BB: We love a Venn. We love a Venn.

KH: Like, if you’re faced with conflict, pull out a Venn diagram.

BB: And the matte pencils to color. Yes.

KH: I’m telling you. In fact, when my goddaughter went to college, she’s now a sophomore, and she comes and stays with me from time to time, because we’re both on the East Coast right now. And it was one of her first weekends in her freshman year. And she’s like, “Auntie, I’ve got…” And it’s all these different groups. And she’s trying to, and I was like, “Honey, we’re going to pull out the Venn diagram.”

[laughter]

KH: That Venn diagram had about 11 circles on it though.

[laughter]

BB: Perfect. I mean, that’s it.

KH: And I was like, “Okay, we’re going to going to figure out where’s the intersection and then let’s figure out where you’re going to fit into it.” I literally still have this Venn diagram. But I just think that if we work toward coalition building, we are stronger as a society. I just know it. And I know that when you bring together seemingly different people and you bring people around a table you can watch. And it’s so exciting. You watch how the silos break down.

BB: Oh yeah.

KH: And everyone leaves a bit taller.

BB: For sure. Seen, heard, valued, contributed.

KH: And you know, part of the struggle that I think we have increasingly in this society as it is evolving and in some ways, devolving. People are feeling alone. And when you feel alone, it’s very disempowering. And when we can bring people together and they see the commonality, it is then empowering of the individual as well as what it does for the collective.

BB: That’s right.

KH: Right?

BB: That’s right. I mean that’s actually the secret sauce of high performing teams. And it doesn’t matter whether I’m working with a corporate team, an NGO team, a military special… that that is, you’re not alone. And we are more alike than we’re different.

KH: Right.

BB: I have to say something now because I’m getting… I’m trying to win the over-under on not cussing during the podcast, but…

KH: Go for it. Just go for it.

BB: No, no. I have to say this, what you’re describing is very different than what I saw from the previous Trump administration. And certainly a stark difference in what he’s committing to do in the next four years if he’s president. And I want to talk about something really specific. And this is very difficult for me just as a woman, as a person, but also someone who has studied leadership for decades.

KH: Yeah.

BB: He’s talking about loyalists, not experts in positions of authority. People that will serve him, not our country, including most recently a comment about using the military against Americans who disagree with him.

KH: The enemy within. He talks about the enemy within American citizens.

BB: I have to catch my breath for a second. I have to understand, or I want to understand, I don’t have to understand, but I want to understand. If I were working in an organization, a Fortune 100 company, and I saw a leader surrounding himself or herself with loyalists, who serve a person rather than a mission and a purpose and shareholders or a board, that would last five seconds.

KH: Right. Right, right.

BB: Do you think this fear about putting loyalists in place is a real fear?

KH: It is a very real fear. And we have heard… Look, the people who know Donald Trump best, who worked with him, members of his political party, who worked with him inside the Oval Office, inside the Situation Room, who were his chief of staff most recently, the one who spoke out, a four star Marine general, his national security advisor, two secretaries of defense, and his former vice president have all said he is unfit to serve as president and he is dangerous. Donald Trump is someone who has said he would terminate the Constitution of the United States. I have taken the oath to uphold and defend the Constitution of the United States six times; twice as DA, twice as attorney general, as a United States senator, and now as vice president.

KH: There are very few oaths… one that you make to your spouse, to God… but to the Constitution of the United States is the highest duty, the most sacred duty that any office holder, especially president of the United States. And this man says he would terminate the Constitution of the United States. And talking about enemies within, I mean, that harkens back to like McCarthyism.

BB: No, it, yeah. I mean, it’s like a straight line. It’s a short line. It’s a short walk.

KH: Yeah. And so the fear is real and legitimate and very well founded. But what I urge everyone to do is do something with that fear, which is understand that we, as long as we hold onto it, have a democracy. And in a democracy in our country, the people have the power through their vote, to determine who will be their leaders and who will be president of the United States and the direction of our country right now, we are truly at an inflection point. We are truly at an inflection point.

BB: I believe that. And I see it, and I just did a two-part special with Heather Cox Richardson, the great…

KH: Yeah. She’s so wonderful.

BB: Yeah. The historian.

KH: Historian. Yeah.

BB: And she, among many historians right now are just reminding voters that authoritarian rule does not come into power with 1950s grainy black and white movies of tanks rolling in, or guns being held to people’s heads. In almost, I mean, if you look at Hungary, if you look at… I mean, like, what’s happening is we vote someone in.

KH: Yep.

BB: And so this, yeah. The enemy within. Can I run something by you?

KH: Anything.

BB: It’s a theory that I have about what I see going on. And I see it from a different perspective than probably political. Because I study human behavior and emotion.

KH: Yeah.

BB: I actually get the attraction of the Trump/Vance approach, and I’m going to tell you why I get it. I get it because we are not neurobiologically hardwired for uncertainty. Antonio Damasio is a neuroscientist. He always said, “Don’t ever believe that we’re thinking machines who have feelings. We are feeling machines who on occasion think.” And so…

KH: Which is the key to the survival of the species.

BB: Right. Which is the key to the survival of the species. And so what ends up happening, I think with this kind of what we we’re seeing with Trump and Vance especially, is, it is really good reality television. It is kind of what we would call in the social sciences, emotional pornography, that the country is somewhat numb to a base level of emotion. I think because we’ve been through so much in the last few years, that it takes extraordinary emotion to get our attention. And the bigger and the blustery, the emotion. And what ends up happening is a strategy of emotional, just kind of emotional nuttiness.

BB: And, “We’re going to win and we’re going to do this.” And everybody’s like, “Yes.” And then you, I find you standing in front of not fans with hats on that match your campaign, but undecided voters talking about the Middle East and Ukraine and economic policy.

KH: Yeah.

BB: And that is… I mean, really, I hate this metaphor, but I am a fifth generation Texan. My grandpa would say, “Damn girl, you brought, you brought a knife to a gunfight.”

KH: Right.

BB: Like you’re talking. You’re talking policy. You’re talking, you’re actually talking about what’s going to, in my opinion, and I’m not being overwrought here. You’re talking about the things that I believe could keep my children alive.

KH: Yeah. That’s my intention.

BB: Especially my daughter.

KH: That’s my intention.

BB: So, you’re talking about how it’s going to work.

KH: And I’m going to tell you something, we are going to win. It is not going to be easy. We are going to win. I believe that the majority of Americans not only love our country deeply…

BB: I believe that.

KH: Right. But understand that at the end of the day, the true measure of the strength of a leader is not based on who you beat down. It’s based on who you lift up. It’s what we teach our kids. It’s what we want in leaders in terms of how they look at us and think about us. And you know, I talk about it on the campaign trail because I truly believe people are exhausted with the Trump era. They’re done. That no matter what the differences between us, we know that it is not healthy. And it does not strengthen us as a nation to have Americans pointing their fingers at each other.

BB: No. I mean, not only is it exhausting, it is…

KH: It’s debilitating.

BB: It’s debilitating. And it’s somewhat traumatizing, to track that level of emotionality and rhetoric, especially, in the study of power, we talk about power over versus power with and power to. And in the type of leadership you’re talking…

KH: I talk about that in freedom. Freedom from, freedom to.

BB: Yes. Yes. Exactly. And so the leadership you’re talking about is power with and to.

KH: Yeah.

BB: The problem with power over, there’s a lot of problems with it, but the biggest thing I’ve seen over the past 20 years of my career is, to maintain power over, you have to be willing to exercise occasional cruelty…

KH: That’s right.

BB: Against vulnerable populations. Otherwise you don’t lose that fear that power over depends on. And…

KH: But the cruelty…

BB: Yeah. The cruelty.

KH: Is a key part of what you were talking about.

BB: And that’s traumatizing for us.

KH: Yes it is. And it is demeaning, but it is also… It’s traumatizing in what we know. What you know. I mean you’re the expert at this table. Trauma, it numbs the individual. It numbs the people. And when we are numb, we will not achieve our capacity, not to mention we will not achieve not only our capacity in terms of productivity, but in terms of a quality of life. I mean, I think about it and I think it is an important thing to think about. You know, what brings you joy? I think that’s important.

BB: Oh my god. It’s key.

KH: Right? And think of it this way, if you’ve ever tried to talk with someone who’s depressed and you try to literally and figuratively open the curtains and say, “Look, it’s the sun’s out. It’s a beautiful day.” And they can’t see it. And there is something about trauma that is very similar in terms of it blunts our senses and ability to see the good, the things that will bring joy. It’s not healthy. And so we have to, to your point, diagnose it. And we have to treat it. And one of the ways to treat it ultimately, is not only to deal with the symptoms, but deal with the cause.

BB: Cause. Yeah.

KH: And that’s what I’m trying to do.

BB: I want to talk to you about this because I think this is interesting. One of the emotional pulls, that my friends… I’ve talked to a lot of people preparing for the interview. Some because that’s what I do.

[laughter]

BB: But like just the research, and some undecided, some voting for you but thinking, “Should I mobilize and just like really get after it and fight?” And I’m like, ‘Yes, we should.”

KH: Yes. Yes.

BB: I want to talk about the emotional pornography that’s being used and the false narratives. So, part of the narrative that’s really being used, I think by some extremists and not all, because let me tell you, I have an awkward family table at Thanksgiving. Like I’ve got people all, I mean, again, this comes with the territory of the fifth generation Texan, right?

BB: I don’t know how to say out loud. When you think you’re the party or the people who own toughness, God, patriotism, responsible gun ownership, and family. Then anyone who disagrees with you is not patriotic…

KH: That’s interesting.

BB: Hates God, is weak and not tough. And what is crazy about that is… not true.

KH: Yeah.

BB: So can I take them one by one with you?

KH: Of course. Of course, of course.

BB: There was a moment at the Democrat National Convention when I saw this still photo of you, and below you were people holding signs that say, “We fight and we win.” And I was like, “This is one of the first people in my party to acknowledge that we have to fight to win.”

KH: Yep. Oh yeah.

BB: You’re not afraid…

KH: Nope.

BB: Of owning the fact that sometimes winning takes fighting.

KH: Absolutely. And here’s how I think about that. If you know what you stand for, then you know what to fight for. It’s not fighting for the sake of fighting.

BB: Say that again.

KH: If you know what you stand for, you know what to fight for. I stand for the freedom of women to make decisions about their own body. I stand for the fact that we should treat each other with dignity and respect. I stand for the proposition that we need to lift up working people and give them access to opportunity. These are the kinds of things I stand for. So, I fight for them.

BB: And if you look at the history, I think of our party, the expansion of liberty and justice, the protection of people and the values we hold dear.

KH: Of course.

BB: We are tough as nails.

KH: Right.

BB: So, I love the fact that you’re unapologetic, if you say that, if you know what you stand for…

KH: You know what to fight for.

BB: You know what to fight for. And I tell the second image, and this is gets kind of complicated, but this is in my jam right here.

[laughter]

BB: This was seeing how much the Walz children adored their dad.

KH: I know.

BB: And it was beautiful. And I thought for a moment, Carl Jung said that paradox, this ability to hold seemingly contradictory things, is the most important spiritual gift we have, and the closest thing that captures the truth to being human. And when I saw you fight to win, and I saw the Walz family, what I thought is “These are not different things.”

KH: Nope.

BB: These are born of the courage to love and the courage to lead.

KH: You’re absolutely right. And you hit it on the head because it is not only if you know what to stand for, you know what to fight for. If you love, you know what to fight for.

BB: Yeah.

KH: And I know this is going to sound corny, but I love our country.

BB: You really do.

KH: I do.

BB: I can tell.

KH: I do. And I believe in the promise of America. I am empirical evidence of the promise of America. I know what we can do. I know what… I believe in the foundational principles, and maybe that’s being trained as a lawyer. And one of the reasons I wanted to become a lawyer, I believe that we can make true all of those words we spoke about our commitment to equality, to liberty, to justice. I believe in all that. But none of it will come without us being vigilant. No, it won’t. You know, on democracy. Look, I think there’s a duality to its nature, right? On one hand, strength. When a democracy is intact, what it does to protect the rights and the freedoms and the liberties of its people. Incredible strength.

BB: Yeah.

KH: On the other hand, incredibly fragile.

BB: There’s a fragility.

KH: It will only be as strong as our willingness to fight for it. I guess that’s your point also about the duality in terms of the paradox.

BB: Paradox. Yeah.

KH: Yeah. That’s.

BB: It’s a paradox.

KH: That’s right. Yeah.

BB: I want to say something else about in this kind of like fake narratives that are just not true and emotionally resonant for people, but untrue. No party gets God. Like I love God. I mean, I taught vacation Bible school.

[laughter]

BB: There is no long term evaluation of how those kids are doing or whether they’re all still okay. But like, I love God. And if you measure your faith and your commitment to the sacred, not by proclamation…

KH: I’m with you. I’m so with you.

BB: But by the willingness to protect the most vulnerable among us.

KH: By deed and deed. Faith in your works.

BB: Faith, oh my God, I was just going to say that. Faith without action.

KH: No.

BB: Like, so I don’t care how much you say you love God.

KH: I’m so with you. And I have never… I have as an elected person purposely not talked a lot because I just find that the people who do tend to be hypocrites.

BB: Oh, yeah.

KH: And I was raised, I was raised in the Black church. I was raised to believe in a loving God. And the God that I believe in and pray to is a God that says, “Do justice, have mercy…”

BB: Do good.

KH: It is about do good. It is about feed the hungry. It is about care for the poor and the elderly. It is about love thy neighbor. It is about the Good Samaritan who in the face… I mean, that’s one of my favorite, the parable of the Good Samaritan, which is, my way of talking about it is that we should in the face of a stranger, see a neighbor, right?

BB: Beautiful. Yeah.

KH: And getting back to what I saw in terms of the relief centers after Hurricane Helene.

BB: That’s it.

KH: That is doing the work of living your faith. I like to say faith is a verb.

BB: For sure. I mean…

KH: Because it is about knowing something even when you can’t see it. But it is also about then manifesting it, right? And then making it real. And so then that’s when you see faith and you have faith, right? When you see it in the works and the deeds as an expression of your deeply held beliefs.

BB: Yes. I mean, yes. And just for the record, this is from me. Don’t quote her quote me. You don’t get God, like, like no party gets God, no group gets God.

KH: No. No, of course not.

BB: Like that’s a terrible way to weaponize God. And it’s just not what we’re talking about. And I feel, I have to tell you, I feel the same way about the co-opting of patriotism.

KH: Yeah, I agree.

BB: Like, I think patriotism is protest, disagreement, debate.

KH: And it is the highest form of patriotism, I believe, to fight for the ideals of our country.

BB: Yes. That fragile and strong democracy.

KH: That’s exactly right. And so in this election, fighting for free and fair elections, fighting for the fact that we will have a president who does not aspire to be a dictator, admiring people like the president of Russia. We will have in our leaders, those who vow to uphold and protect the Constitution of the United States, not terminate it. Isn’t that… Aren’t those examples of what we believe patriotism to be, which is the love of our country, understanding the oath and the responsibility in particular that elected leaders have?

BB: That’s it.

KH: To foundational principles?

BB: I have to read this to you, because when I read this, I heard about it on the news. But when I read the National Security Leaders for America letter.

KH: Yeah.

BB: So, I do a ton of work with the military and with veterans. I know some of the people who signed this letter. These people are not kidding around.

KH: And they’re not political people.

BB: They’re not political people. And if they were, I would imagine they were probably conservative Republicans, to be honest with you.

KH: I agree with you.

BB: Yeah. And so I just want to read part of it. “We are former public servants.” This is on September 22nd, 2024. “We are former public servants who swore on oath to the Constitution. Many of us risked our lives for it. We are retired generals, admirals, senior non-commissioned officers, ambassadors, and senior civilian national security leaders. We are Republicans, Democrats, and Independents. We are loyal to the ideals of our nation, like freedom, democracy, and the rule of law. Not to any individual or party. We do not agree on everything. But we all adhere to two fundamental principles. First, we believe an America’s national security requires a serious and capable commander in chief. Second, we believe American democracy is invaluable. Each generation has a responsibility to defend it. That is why we, the undersigned proudly endorse Kamala Harris to be the next president of the United States. This election is a choice between serious leadership and vengeful impulsiveness. It is a choice between democracy and authoritarianism. Vice President Harris defends America’s democratic ideals while former President Donald Trump endangers them.”

KH: So I, as vice president of the United States, I have now met over 150 world leaders; presidents, prime ministers, chancellors, and kings. Many of them multiple times, we’re on a first name basis. When we walk in those rooms around the world, representing the United States of America, we have traditionally been able to walk in those rooms, chin up, shoulders back, with the earned and self-appointed authority, to talk about things like democracy and rule of law.

BB: That’s right.

KH: But being a role model means people watch what you do, to see if it matches up to what you say.

BB: And look for one opportunity to dismiss.

KH: What otherwise imperfect though we may be, is a gold standard, if not the gold standard. And I will tell you that part of my hope and prayer for us as a country, is that among the stakes that we understand are at play in this election, that we all understand how important America is to the rest of the world. I really, I hope, and I pray we fully understand what we mean to the rest of the world, where people in various parts of the world are fighting for democracy. Where women are fighting for their ability to be educated, to have rights. And so, these national security leaders having their support and endorsement, I’m deeply honored, but it also is testament to the fact that just like John Kelly, recently speaking out publicly about his concerns about Trump and fascism and all of that think of their letter as a 911 call to the American people.

BB: It took my breath away.

KH: Yeah.

BB: They talked about your steadfastness in the situation room, they talked about your toughness, and they talked with real fear about what would happen. That Trump would remain absolutely unchecked and has developed relationships far deeper than what we understand with some of the most dangerous people threatening everything we believe in.

KH: And this is not 2016 or 2020.

BB: No.

KH: He is also increasingly unstable and unhinged. And the significance of even the words that you read about… I asked people to imagine we can all picture the Oval Office. You’ve seen it on TV. Imagine the Oval Office in your head, just imagine it on January 20th, 2025. If Donald Trump is sitting there, he will be stewing over his enemies list.

BB: Oh, I think that’s true. People talk about their fear.

KH: Versus what I intend to do, which is sitting there thinking of the American people working on my to-do list. There’s is a big difference.

BB: Oh the gotcha list and the to-do list.

KH: Mm hmm.

BB: I mean, this goes back to the difference of loyalists to serve him.

KH: That’s right.

BB: And experts.

KH: We’ve come full circle.

BB: Yes.

KH: That’s right.

BB: So, fifth generation Texan. I cannot let you out of this conversation without saying that I’m really scared for the women in my state.

KH: Yeah.

BB: I’m scared for my daughter. I spoke Monday in San Antonio to 7500 educators. And I want to tell you something that really was devastating to me. On stage I was asked by the person facilitating the conversation what I thought about the fact that some of their members, these educators did not come because it was being held in San Antonio, and they would not come because of the Machiavellian abortion laws here.

KH: Yeah.

BB: And I thought, “Well, I believe in standing up for what you believe in.” And as it turns out, I can barely talk about it. I mean, as it turns out, many of the women who chose not to come actually chose not to come because they are pregnant.

KH: I know. And I assumed that’s where you’re going. Because I’ve heard…

BB: Yeah. They were afraid.

KH: There are a lot of….

BB: If something happened.

KH: There are a lot of pregnant women who do not want to travel to states with Trump abortion bans for exactly that reason. That God forbid something happens, God forbid they are experiencing a difficulty with their pregnancy or miscarriage.

BB: Yeah, like clotting or bleeding.

KH: Absolutely.

BB: Then all of a sudden their choices are, go to jail or die.

KH: It’s, again, this gets back to the fact that we must be vigilant, and we have to remember that we can never take our rights for granted. Back to your point about talking with folks about whether they should get very activated around this election and knock on doors and tell people why they care and why it matters and why they should vote. This is the day, this is the time.

BB: This is the fight.

KH: Because this is, this is. And I mean the fundamental, the notion that in the United States of America in this year of our Lord 2024, that women don’t have the right to make decisions about their own body. I mean, what could be more fundamental? We’re not talking about property rights. We’re literally talking about the right to make decisions about your own body. And in Texas, the law provides up to prison for life for a physician, a healthcare provider, for performing the care that they deem in the best interest of their patient.

KH: And can you imagine what’s happening now is that I’ve talked to a lot of physicians and medical school professors…

BB: Oh yeah.

KH: And they’re seeing a decline in their postdocs…

BB: For sure.

KH: Who want to go into family… or go into family medicine in particular reproductive healthcare because these students they don’t want to go to states… And that we now have 20 states with Trump abortion bans. And you already look at the fact that we still have the sad reality of America is we still have the highest rate of maternal mortality of any so-called wealthy nation. If you look at the reasons behind that, it includes the lack of appropriate and adequate care for women in the context of their reproductive systems.

BB: Yes.

KH: Whether it be pre-pregnancy, during pregnancy, postpartum. We have so many deserts. We call them deserts for maternal care.

BB: Oh yeah.

KH: And you have then the effect that includes that people don’t want to go into reproductive healthcare. I’m the first vice president and never has there been a president who’s gone to a reproductive health clinic. I wanted to go, because I wanted to highlight the fact that in these clinics also, it’s not only abortion care; that’s where they do Paps. They do breast cancer screenings. I mean, they do HIV screenings.

BB: I saw nobody except a Planned Parenthood nurse practitioner for 15 years.

KH: Exactly right. And because you knew, and so many people know, you walk into that clinic and that’s where you’re going to be treated with dignity. You’re not going to be judged. It’s a safe place. That’s what these clinics offer. Usually they are run by women and they’re closing, in many places because of the laws that are present in those states. And so you’re talking about so many ramifications, whether it be students going into to medical practice for reproductive care, whether it be clinics closing, whether it be pregnant women not wanting to travel, whether it be kids like some of my godchildren who in high school, are making college application decisions based on which state.

BB: Oh, for sure.

KH: Right? The ramifications of this highlight a fact, which is that Donald Trump threw his decision to put those three members on the Supreme Court to undo Roe, has created a healthcare crisis in America. This is a healthcare crisis.

BB: This is a healthcare crisis for sure. Okay. Our time is up. I’m getting a sign.

KH: Darn.

BB: I’m getting a sign. We could keep going, but.

KH: I know like I could sit here and talk to you all afternoon.

[laughter]

BB: Yeah. I’m going to end with something that we always end up with it, which is part of the rapid fire. Just one question.

KH: Okay.

BB: A snapshot of an ordinary moment in your life that gives you true joy.

KH: Sunday family dinner, hands down. In my normal life, I love to cook. And Sunday family dinner is non-negotiable. Everyone comes, whoever’s in town, they can bring their friends. And I cook. We have our routines. Sunday family dinner, hands down.

BB: I love a Sun… We have a big Sunday family dinner too.

KH: Really?

BB: I mean, we hold hands and sing Grace. It’s the whole thing, right?

KH: Really?

BB: Yeah. We do. Yeah. I will say the snapshot of an ordinary moment in my life that gives me true joy is you and your commitment to justice. And your commitment to duty and service. And I am as activated as I can be. And I…

KH: Thank you for your voice. I said it to you before we started the program, but you give voice to so many people who rightly must be seen and heard and talk about leadership. What you do with your voice and your platform is really build community in a very important way. And I thank you for that because that’s in the best interest of all of us. So thank you. And it’s great to be with you. I look forward to talking with you again.

BB: I do too. Let’s fight and win.

KH: Yes, we will.

BB: Okay.

[music]

BB: I really appreciate y’all being here for the conversation. I learned a lot about… I guess I was surprised in some ways, I don’t know why, about her values. It completely checks out that fairness and justice are the deep, deep core values that she turns to when things are tough. We all have many values, but there’s normally we have found in our research, one or two, that is the space where all other values are forged. And it means something to me to have a leader of this democracy that’s committed to justice and fairness, that’s committed to building a collaborative, high performing, strategic leadership team around her. Rather than a team of loyalists that don’t serve the country, but serve the leader. I think in any other sector, where you and I would be at work or in nonprofits, wherever we go every day, the team of loyals has never gone down in global history as courageous, meaningful leadership. I hope you vote. I hope you take seriously the oath that maybe we have not taken because we are not formal elected leaders, but the oath that we all take as citizens in a democracy. I’m grateful for you. I’m grateful for this community. Stay awkward, brave, and kind. And vote.

BB: Unlocking Us is produced by Brené Brown Education and Research Group. The music is by Carrie Rodriguez and Gina Chavez. Get new episodes as soon as they’re published by following Unlocking Us on your favorite podcast app. We are part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Discover more Award-winning shows @podcasts.voxmedia.com.

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