Brené Brown: Hi, everyone. I’m Brené Brown, and this is Unlocking Us.

[music]

BB: I’m here today with…

Ashley Brown Ruiz: Ashley.

Barrett Guillen: Barrett.

BB: And we’re talking about the Gottmans. Julie Schwartz Gottman and John Gottman have written a new book, The Love Prescription, and it is a short tactical, practical, get-your-vulnerability-on book, and we’re going to talk about our reaction to it, what we learned from those first two podcasts and the book. Stay tuned. I don’t know what’s going to happen, but you know it will be interesting or weird.

BB: Alright, we’re back. Who wants to start? Let’s let the therapist start. Barrett?

ABR: Okay, okay. If I could just start, let’s just follow…

BB: Ashley, therapist.

ABR: Can we call them the Dr. Gottmans?

[laughter]

BB: I think we can just call them the Gottmans.

ABR: Yeah, okay. The Gottmans have this question that they shared, that they ask, and so let’s start there. So what’s on your mind and what’s on your heart today? Barrett is going to go first.

BG: Probably really navigating… We went back to school a lot later than most schools did, and I think we’re really navigating middle school, so yeah, I think that’s really what’s on my heart. And this book too, because navigating, having a middle school child for two adults is not easy either.

BB: No, no, no, no, no, no. Especially, I often say about parenting a middle-schooler, the hardest thing about parenting a middle-schooler is the reactivity in parents, because immediately you’re the sweaty palms seventh grader that has no place to sit and no friends. And then there’s a part of you that desperately needs your kid to not be that person, because it’s too painful to go back to that. It’s dicey. Yeah, okay, so on my mind is… I’m still trying to figure out what the new me is at work. You know. So I think that’s really on my mind a lot, and I’m trying to think about how work does not get in the way of pickleball because I’m missing shots right now, and it’s because unlike this summer, I have a lot on my mind. And so when you’re playing pickleball, it’s really… The feedback is immediate if you’re not paying attention.

BG: Dangerous sometimes.

BB: And yeah, it hurts. It’s a ball on the face. So on my mind is like, not really what I’m going to be doing for work, but how I’m going to be different at work. What’s on my heart, right now, is probably this book, and maybe what’s on my heart right now is, I wonder how hard it is for Steve and Ellen and Charlie to see me kind of collapsed. I talked about getting blown off the cliff.

ABR: Cliff?

BG: Cliff? Yeah.

BB: Yeah. And I think that must be hard for them sometimes, and so I’m thinking about that. No one wants to see someone they love blown off a cliff.

ABR: No.

BB: Yeah, so I’m thinking a lot about that right now. What’s on your heart and mind, Ash?

ABR: So on my mind is just a lot of the things that we’re doing this fall in the community that I run The Daring Way, excited about it, but there’s a lot to do for it, so that’s been on my mind. And I think on my heart, which has been here for a while, is just this dance that I’m doing and learning new steps to, and it feels like a little bit of a line dance on how to navigate being a mom with a daughter that’s newly at college, so that’s on my heart. All the time, I think.

BB: Yeah.

ABR: Yeah.

BB: Yeah, that requires a lot of space in the heart.

ABR: Yeah, and when we were with the Gottmans podcast, they talked a lot about how they do things together, which is a marriage, but I was thinking a lot about bringing into this podcast just my relationship with my daughter or my friends. So when the Gottmans were talking about things, it just clearly was relationships. It didn’t stick so much for me for a marriage, so.

BB: Yeah. What was your overall take?

ABR: Oh, gosh. My overall take was I just don’t think they’re ever going to run out of research to share with us. [laughter] I mean, I love it so much. I think even just listening to the podcast, and they’re like “Hon” and “Baby”, and just to be able to see them navigating this kind of a book or this research, or their other stuff too, but also it’s coming out in how they’re showing up together. It’s really cool. So I think my biggest take was just the excitement about how can you really create a relationship like that, because it’s a little bit foreign for me.

BB: We did not grow up seeing that.

ABR: I think we grew up seeing bids for connection that were shot down versus like the turn towards.

BB: Yeah, and I almost think the shooting down of bids of connection was almost like maybe an art form. It was sometimes really mean humor.

ABR: Oh, yeah.

BB: And who can shoot down the bid for connection in the funniest way, even I made a joke when she said, “Say yes to a request,” and the request is, “Can you get groceries this week?” And then my first laughing uncomfortable thing was, “What, do you have a flat tire?” And then everybody laughs, but then that’s… We grew up with a lot of that.

ABR: Yeah, and the bids for connection could sometimes be authentic and real, and sometimes, they could be a set up.

BB: Oh, my God! A trap.

ABR: Yeah, so just to be able to see like an authentic, healthy, I guess, way of building a relationship seemed cool, and I love how the book is set up to where you’re learning something new and you’re implementing it and practicing it.

BB: I agree. Barrett, what did you think?

BG: I really thought about all the missed opportunities, and I loved how Julie actually started the whole conversation saying that it takes baby steps to change your relationship. I thought that was really important, and I just thought that… It’s almost… Ties back to the work that we do about finding joy in ordinary moments.

BB: Yes, yeah.

BG: And yeah, not chasing these big sweeping relationship changing moments, but every day noticing and paying attention.

BB: Yeah, because it’s really stressful when you’re in not a good place, where you’re not doing the daily moments, and then it’s date night.

[laughter]

BG: Yeah. It’s zero to 100.

BB: I’m always like, “I’m sick. Or the babysitter. Somebody’s sick. Somebody’s got…” I can’t do it, because there’s so much pressure.

BG: Yes. And then it becomes performative, and then it’s not even real connection sometimes.

BB: I want to read something from the book that I thought was really interesting. So they run a two-day workshop for couples where Day 1 is focused on friendship and intimacy and Day 2 is focused on conflict. And the point of the workshop is that couples tackle both of the essential topics. But they wondered which is more urgent. If couples want to start with the most impactful interventions, what would help the most? So again, it’s friendship and intimacy or conflict. They did an experimental study. One group of participants did just Day 1, friendship and intimacy. Another group did only Day 2, and the final group did both days. A year later, they reconnected with the couples to see how everyone was doing. It’s no shocker that the group that did both days of the workshop had retained the most lasting changes after a year. But what was interesting is the group that did only Day 1 was also doing really well. So not the ones who tackled just conflict, but the ones who tackled just friendship and intimacy. The ones who only did conflict, which I think it seems like always the purpose of couple’s work. “Let’s just do conflict. Let’s just do conflict. They fared the worst. So the message was clear. Focusing only on conflict as a way to rekindle a relationship is the wrong way to go about things. They say, “First we have to work on the friendship.” I mean, that’s big to me.

ABR: What was your part that stood out from the podcast?

BB: I think one of the biggest problems that I have, and it’s about the story they told about the cabin…

BG: Mm, yeah.

ABR: That was so good.

BB: You know, where Julie wants a cabin, and John says, “No, we’re not getting a cabin.” And Julie says, “Yes,” and John says, “No.” And then they go to a therapist. And therapist was like, “John, just set a boundary and say, ‘You’re not getting a cabin.’” And they’re both like, “You’re fired.”

ABR: She’s like, “He really… That therapist liked John.”

BB: That reminded me of a story of when Steve and I first got married. Do you remember this? We were having a huge conflict about moving to Houston because Steve was finishing his third year of medical school, and the third year of medical school is just terrible. It’s just brutal in terms of hours and stressors. And the fourth year is kind of the relaxed year. It’s decent hours, and it’s different assignments. And he was so looking forward to this fourth year. Well, I had just been accepted into graduate school in Houston, and we’d already lived apart a lot because I was in school at UT, and he was in San Antonio for medical school. And so every day we were fighting about this because I didn’t want to turn down getting into the MSW program in Houston. So we went to this therapist who was an MSW, and like, the first meeting we had, the therapist said, “Wait, he’s going to be a doctor and you’re going to be a social worker. You go where he’s going.”

BG: Holy shit.

ABR: That’s a hard pass.

BB: So I was so devastated. We walked out to the car, and I may have been thinking, “Oh, is that right?” And Steve goes, “What a dick! This guy is the biggest asshole. He can’t talk to you that way. Like, no!” You know. And so he ended up doing a whole fourth year, all of his rotations in Houston, which is so scary. Like, you go to the biggest medical center in the world where you know no one, and instead of the great year being where you know everybody, where you know the hospital systems, he gets plunked down in Houston and does it. But he does it. And I come to graduate school here. But that was such a lesson that, look, if something smells bad or seems bad or sounds bad with your therapist, challenge it, and if it doesn’t change, leave.

ABR: Yeah.

BG: Steve came out of that as chief resident, right? After his fourth year?

BB: He did medical school, he did residency here, then did chief here. Yeah.

BG: That was so cool.

BB: And a lot of people that he met his fourth year. That’s why he wanted to do his residency here. So that story was a lot. I think for me, the biggest thing about it was really that dual working parent study.

BG: Holy shit.

BB: Yes. Where people talk to each other 35 minutes a week. I think sometimes it’s very easy for rowing the boat together and logistics and get the games and do this, and what’s going on can become the substitute for intimacy and friendship, which is why, like, when you’re my age and everyone’s kids are leaving for college, there’s very little left in the friendship bank account.

BG: Yeah.

ABR: Sometimes I’m so glad that I’m single, because it seems like my marriage was really hard, my divorce was really hard.

BB: They were both hard.

ABR: Yeah. And right now, when we were talking about how this podcast went, and I was like, “I’m just so glad I’m single.” This is really hard. The truth is, I don’t want to be single. Like, I want to be in a relationship with people. I’ve worked really hard to make sure that I don’t put y’all in that role for me, because I think for a long time, y’all were like, that role for me, like my partner. But I think what this taught me yesterday, and it’s one of those things that we had talked about in another podcast about how we know this stuff, but when someone says it to us, we’re like, “Oh, my God, yeah.” Just seeing ways to work together, it’s like, I never even knew that you had these tools with a romantic partner.

BB: Me neither.

BG: Yeah.

ABR: What? Being friends? How cool would that be? I’ve not been in that before. So I think it stirred up some excitement in me about…

BB: Coupling?

ABR: Coupling. I like that word coupling.

BB: Yeah. It stirred up some excitement in me too about coupling. And I’m longtime coupled with the same person. But it goes back to, it’s hard to couple when you’re at the bottom of the cliff. And so I need to invest more in that part of my life, for sure.

ABR: Do you remember the podcast that… I don’t know if you did it or we did it together, but you were talking about, like, the 50/50 split, the 20/80 split and stuff. How do you go through the last three years when neither one of y’all…

BB: That’s it.

ABR: Could get to the… You know what I mean? Like, y’all weren’t ever able to meet 80/20.

BB: No.

ABR: It was like both of y’all had 20.

BB: Well, I think both of us had 20 or both of us had 10. And that big, gaping 80 is why it was the hardest season.

ABR: Yeah.

BB: I think a lot about the statistics on couples who lose children.

ABR: Oh, yeah.

BB: Yeah. And the divorce rates around that, I could see that because no one has the 80 for that 10. Both people are mired in such grief and desperation. And so I think I’m so curious about what it could be like that we never saw.

ABR: Yeah.

BB: And I still don’t think I’ve completely done what I want to do. Like, I really want to try these things. And every time a question went to Julie, did you notice she went back to family of origin and childhood stuff?

ABR: Yeah.

BB: I mean, every time.

BG: Yeah.

BB: And you can tell, clinician researcher. You know and I think for me, a lot of the reason why I turn away from bids of connection is that I make up a story about what they’re about. “Hey, how are you doing?” Or “See the blue jay.” Or something that she said, “I’m working and you don’t care about my work.” Or “You think I work too much and you’re trying to test me.” And he’s like, “No. That’s just a nice blue jay.”

BG: Yeah.

ABR: And John’s circle back to going to his daughter’s garden. I thought, like, you’re going to screw it up. But the awareness to be able to say, “That was a bid for connection. I missed it, I want to make it up, I want to go see the garden. I’m not a gardener, but it was important to my daughter.”

BG: And I don’t even think I saw these as bids for connection. I think I can get past them on the other side and look back and say, “Oh, that was a bid for connection.” But in the moment, until we listened to this podcast, I don’t think I would have said, “Oh, that was a bid for connection.”

BB: Awareness. That’s one thing that John said for the homework from John was just be aware of the bids.

BB: One of the things that’s kind of… I’m just going to be really honest here. One of the things that’s hard is I don’t think I ever… I mean, I’m sure I have, but I think I rarely miss a bid for a connection from my kids. I’m always watching for them and I’m always looking for them and I’m so excited. Especially I have a 17-year-old boy. Bid for connection. “Yes! What is it?”

ABR: “I will go with you to pick out flowers.”

BB: I think I never wait more than a split second to text back Ellen because she’s in a different city. Those bids for connection, I’m very aware of and I’m very quick to turn toward. And the hard thing is that I remember in fits and starts when Mom and Dad’s marriage was great for moments that nothing meant more to me as a child, including when Mom and Dad turned toward me, nothing meant more to me as a kid than when I watched them turn toward each other.

ABR: I remember one time growing up and I turned towards the kitchen and I saw them kiss and I was like, “Whoa, I didn’t know they did that.” But that one memory and then a lot of other memories stayed with me, but I didn’t ever see them connect like that.

BB: I think when you don’t see your parents turn toward each other, that’s really hard for a child, you know? And so I vividly remember seeing our parents turn toward each other on occasion and just thinking, really almost being flooded with a sense that the world is safe, you know? That’s hard.

ABR: I agree.

BB: Because I think as I’m crumpled, I’m mixing podcasts now. This is a crossover, like when Scooby Doo goes on Spiderman or something. But when I talked about the coming back podcast, I talked about being over a cliff and all my bones were broken. I think I need to prioritize Steve as I get better, because even with broken bones, I’ll army crawl to get stuff done for the kids. But if Steve asked me to do something I’m like, “I’m at the bottom of a fucking cliff! Do you not see me? You do it yourself!”

ABR: Yeah.

BG: I’m laughing with you not at you.

[laughter]

ABR: Yeah. I totally get it. I’m like, sometimes can be desperately waiting for a bid of connection from Amaya. Like, “Oh, you want me to come out for your birthday? Yep. I’ll take off work. I’ll get a hotel. What do you want to do?”

BG: Yeah.

BB: Yeah, it’s hard. I remember from one of our anniversary posts on Instagram, I just wrote, “Steve and I,” you know, “Year 26” or 25 or whatever it was. “We have no idea what we’re doing, but we do just keep showing up.” But I think after reading this book, what’s scary about it is I now know what I’m not doing, and I can’t pretend like “I don’t know, I’m just showing up. I didn’t have it modeled.” John and Julie are like, “Tough shit.”

ABR: That’s like on the podcast when you’re like, “Asking for a friend,” and Julie was like, “Uh huh. Yeah, right.”

BB: Yeah, it’s hard.

ABR: I do even, like, with y’all sometimes I want to get better at paying attention to bids for connection. I mean, just the three of us.

BB: I think that’s true. And we went through a lot in the last couple of years. Not only did we… Essentially we weren’t always living together during quarantine and during COVID, but we went through it together for sure. And our kids and we kind of parented as one brain and made decisions together and checked with each other around everything. And then with Mom and Dad, really hard stuff.

ABR: I also really loved in the podcast, they were saying, like, with your kids, I wrote this part down. It was like,” I love you so much. I want to know everything about every minute, the history of what’s changed you. Like, you’ve gone off, and now you’re a new person, and I want to know everything that happened, what changed you, how that went down.” Because I think that about my daughter right now who’s taking social work classes for the first time. And I’m like, “She’s going to get so fired up, just like we all did in social work class and want to make all these changes,” and it’s so hard for me not to want to have every single conversation about her classes, like, “What did you learn? What’s firing you up? Where do you want to protest? Do you need a ride?” So I love that part about that…

BB: The inner world.

ABR: Yeah. It stuck with me.

BB: Yeah. And I think so, too. I think also it really makes me think about how lonely it must get sometimes for men, because I share my inner world with y’all a lot, and y’all know. But I don’t know that guys have those friendships all the time. I mean, you know, rates of loneliness are very high in men.

ABR: Yeah.

BB: But I do think, I don’t know, to love someone so much that you want to carve out time to understand their map, who they are. I think what’s scary about that with a partner that’s less scary with a sister or a friend is… And it’s also scary… I think it’s scariest first with a partner and then second with a child is, what if what’s on your heart and on your map and in your dreams takes you away from me in some way?

ABR: Mmmm hmmm.

BG: Yeah.

BB: Or means I’m going to have to do something that’s not on my heart. “Well, that can’t be on your heart, I’m not going to Antarctica.” That’s even like, “Are you shitting me?” It’s almost like why therapy is so good because the person who’s listening is not vested in the outcome. Where when you’re talking to a partner or a child… That’s when your kids start saying, “I want to go to school far away.” You’re like, “That’s so great.” Shit.

BG: Even when John said in the podcast that like, as you get older, it’s harder to do that. He said, “As we get older, it takes more effort to connect with people and build a community.” And I totally believe that because I can find myself the most happy just by myself.

BB: I’ve got one word for you. Pickleball.

ABR: [laughter] No. So I… started taking Mahjong classes.

[laughter]

BG: Talk about getting older. No. Just kidding.

[laughter]

ABR: And I was dragging my feet, I don’t know if I really want to do this. The day of the week it’s on I’m so busy. It’s my busiest day. And all like pouty. I had so much fun every time I’m there. [laughter] So I thought that’s what I liked too, like being by myself and just being on my couch watching TV or playing around in my house. But the truth is, every time I’m out doing something and connecting, that’s really what fills me up.

BB: You know what? I think that’s so true and I’ve got to tell you that every single person I play pickleball with plays Mahjong. So I’m sure there’ll be a pickleball Mahjong cross-up match at some point. But not every single person, but a lot of them have been playing Mahjong together for like 35 years.

ABR: So fun. Our teacher is no bullshit.

BB: Oh, I love that. I cannot wait. We’re game-playing people over here. [laughter]

ABR: Don’t get Chaz involved.

BB: [laughter] Yeah. No, no, no. He’s just so mean. [laughter] But here’s one thing that I’ll say, is I thought that I liked being alone too, alone in the house eating and watching a movie. Does it get better than that? And then I was reading because I’m in my… Putting my bones back together and what part of this is workaholism and addiction, but this whole idea that the opposite of addiction is not sobriety the opposite of addiction is connection. I think part of being in fit spiritual condition, which is that prerequisite in the big book for neutrality and the things that I like to live toward is connection. I think that food and television thing is dangerous for me.

ABR: Yeah. I mean, because it can go from one movie and a fun meal to a weekend and five pizzas. [laughter]

BB: Really? That sounds so good [laughter], but it’s so numbing.

ABR: Yeah.

BB: As opposed to connecting. Are y’all introverts or extroverts? I always wonder about this.

ABR: I don’t even know.

BB: I think you’re an ambivert.

ABR: Yeah. Well you didn’t give that as an option. [laughter] What is that? Middle?

BB: Maybe you refuel and recharge both ways in connection with others and alone.

ABR: Yeah. For sure.

BB: I’m a strictly introvert. I do not refuel with people. I mean, it’s something important. I love connection, but I refuel…

BG: Yeah. I think I’ve always thought I was an extrovert, but I think I could be somewhere in the middle too. Oh, and hold on. The one other thing I was going to say that I thought was really important was, instead of always pointing out what they’re doing wrong, pointing out what they’re doing right, I thought that was really important. And I was thinking a lot about too, my daughter, when Julie was saying, “We grow up with just, don’t do this, don’t do that, don’t do this, don’t do that.” But to catch people doing things right, you even talk about it in Dare to Lead. I was like, “Oh yeah, that’s a big one.”

BB: That reminds me of Toni Morrison on Oprah when she said, “When your child walks in, the first thing you say is, ‘Oh, you can’t wear those pants.’ And ‘Why is your comb in your back pocket?’ And ‘Where’s your homework?’ And ‘Your shirt is crooked and your buttons are not right.’ Next time just work on lighting up when your child walks in the room.” And what would it be like to have a partner where you light up when he walks or she walks in the room.

ABR: And could you imagine the power, the love, the joy in really loving your partner as you go into the empty nest season?

BB: Yeah.

ABR: I mean, how much fun could that be?

BB: It could be a ton of fun. We’re working on it right now.

ABR: Good. I think just now starting new relationships and doing that stuff is, that’s what I look forward to. Imagine having a person that I really love, and have fun with, and spend time with, and that y’all’s family really loves too. And having that for the rest of my life. That would be fun.

BB: It is fun. It’s a ton of work.

BG: Yeah.

ABR: Yeah. I would be in for the work. They would have to be too though, that’s the problem. [laughter] I’m looking at the seven different things, action plans, and I think that I really want to be… Declare a date night and tell Amaya that I have to do it for work and that she’s going to go with me. [laughter] No. I really just want to be super mindful of bids for connection and move towards, even if the moving towards has a boundary attached to it, at least move towards acknowledge that it was a bid.

BB: Yes. Yes.

BG: I want to read this book together with my husband and just do the seven steps.

BB: I want to read it with Steve too, and I’m going to ask the big question.

BG: Oh, yeah.

BB: Yeah. I want to get into that heart. Have that heart map.

BG: Yeah, me too.

ABR: Yeah. That would be so cool.

BB: I’m scared.

ABR: Yeah. You want to go to Antarctica? [laughter]

BB: Yeah. Yeah.

BG: I didn’t read the book I just listened to the podcast. Do you have to do the seven steps in order?

BB: I don’t remember reading that you have to do them in order, but they do seem to graduate in an important way.

ABR: It’s like a short little sweet book with actionable items, which is always so cool to me. Like little journal parts and…

BB: I’m ready.

BG: Maybe before the season is over we’ll have to come back and give an update on how things are going with our Gottman work. I feel like the Gottmans, every time we do a podcast with them, it sets me back in therapy a few weeks.

[laughter]

BB: Oh my God, same.

ABR: I’ll tell y’all don’t go to dinner. [laughter]

BB: Don’t go to dinner with the Gottmans.

BG: Until you’re ready. Don’t make eye contact. They can’t see. You don’t know me.

BB: Is this dinner or is this a love lab?

BB: All right y’all, thanks so much. I don’t know what this transcript is going to look like either, but it’ll be on the brenebrown.com page and thank y’all for being with us and stay awkward, brave, and kind. Unlocking Us is a Spotify original from Parcast. It’s hosted by me, Brené Brown. It’s produced by Max Cutler, Kristin Acevedo, Carleigh Madden, and Tristan McNeil. And by Weird Lucy Productions. Sound design by Tristan McNeil. And music is by the amazing Carrie Rodriguez and the amazing Gina Chavez.

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